hadriel | 014 [Video] /dated to a few hours after Yusuke's anon post

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014 [Video] /dated to a few hours after Yusuke's anon post

[Lance looks a little over life at the moment, which most of his friends probably recognize as his standard look when not being purposefully professional. He's not bothering with the latter right now, both because he's a bit annoyed and because he thinks it would be pointless, so instead everyone gets normal, slightly bitchy Lance.]

Okay, I wish I could say that I can't believe I have to remind people of this, but vigilante justice is not exactly the best idea here. Not only is it morally wrong to just declare yourself to have the authority to decide who is and isn't deserving of 'justice', but it's logically wrong too; you're just going to cause problems, not solve them.

I'm not saying not to intervene when something's actively happening, but going after someone days or weeks later is just starting the whole process of retaliation all over again. So can everyone just take their egos down a notch and, if they're concerned about someone being an active threat or something, work on coming up with some sort of solution that isn't going to make things worse as soon as it's done?

[This is not the first time he's had to go into this discussion while here--or at home--and so that's why he's being extra short about it. He's also not just talking about the recent incident, it's simply what prompted him to say something this time.]

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[ Drake is reasonably certain this is about the demon popsicle, who will see this post when she thaws out... so maybe he shouldn't make himself a public enemy by responding honestly but also? Whatever. ]

The term I usually wind up using is "endless death cycle" and yeah. They're bad. Don't start those. I've personally stopped a few when I could, and I'm worried this vigilante's gonna wind up in one too.

Except we've never actually come up with a good method of containing serial killers or sadists or whoever, here, especially when they're super powerful. Nobody can agree what to do so they run free and do a lot of murder until they just leave, eventually. In this case it's been six months of steady attacks and the vast majority of us are no use.

Ideas? I'll have the conversation again if anyone has one this time.

[Lance is way past caring if someone gets mad about something he says in a post or subsequent conversations, especially after being so careful about the whole thing with Maketh and then it going very bad very fast.]

Last time I was asked how to handle one of these situations I was ignored, then it turned out my solution ended up happening on its own a little while later and, surprise, I was completely right and it worked. Because this is kind of my job.

[Sorry Drake, that isn't directly at you, he's just still mad about that. But the point is--]

We're all stuck here together, and so we need to try to work together, and that includes people who are causing problems; usually they're doing what they're doing for a reason, and figuring out that reason helps with deciding on a better way of getting whatever they get out of what they're doing.

In the case of Caedra, she's also not human. Not that we should just be okay with murder, but it does mean that we should take that into consideration when coming up with some sort of solution.

[He's no demon expert, but he's going to take a guess that their psychological needs and culture is not exactly an identical match for humans. Obviously that doesn't mean she can just murder whoever she wants, but it does mean she should be treated a little differently than a human would be.]

Edited 2018-10-19 23:00 (UTC)

I'm not sure what time you're referring to, sorry man. Maybe I was busy last time, but the fact that it could be about a bunch of different things is a problem. I just know that people complain no one does anything when bad shit happens, but then also really don't want any kind of law established, even if it's just "murder bad" which I always felt was a given.

[ He'll consider what Lance is saying now, though, and about Caedra specifically. ]

What if the reason they're doing what they're doing is just wanting to hurt people? Because that's what the last few killers seem to have had as their entire motive, besides Caedra's city-wide attack to escape that we talked her out of as unproductive.

I'm not saying it can't work, but obviously we're doing something wrong on that front because it's not working so far. And of course people are gonna get fed up when the murderers just keep getting passes.

Edited (i should also remember to pick icons) 2018-10-19 23:13 (UTC)

[ Not too long ago, Ephemera would have been fully on board with the vengeance at any cost crowd. How much time has passed since then depends on who you ask. Now he mostly feels tired when he thinks about the dead - his dead - and the people who made them that way. He looks tired in the video, too. ]

This really a good idea, Doc?

Which part of it?

[Annoyed though he is, it's at the situation and not Ephemera, so he's careful to make sure his tone is neutral.]

You weren't a part of it; it's fine.

[Moving on--]

I'm not really into the idea of establishing laws or any sort of police force either, though; there aren't that many people here who should be trusted with something like that. But there is a middle ground, where people could work together to put other sorts of consequences into place, or at least try something before jumping straight into answering murder with more murder as if they have no concept of hypocrisy.

[Sorry, getting salty again.]

As for Caedra, do we actually know that's her motive? Because I know that one of the last few people who were assigned that motive was actually acting out of boredom.

[And so there had been a relatively simple solution, but it had required doing something other than assuming violence was the way to handle it.]

I'm definitely not interested in letting murderers have free passes, but it doesn't help if we just end up in "endless death cycles" as you put it. It also doesn't help if vigilantes start getting too sure of themselves and end up going off the rails, because that can get really bad really fast.

Edited 2018-10-19 23:29 (UTC)

Painting a target on your head.

[ Ephemera hesitates. ]

Look. I got no right to lecture you so I won’t. But this is putting you in the middle.

It's fine, Ephemera. I appreciate the concern.

[He means that genuinely.]

I'm not really worried about this making me a target, though. I doubt Caedra's going to be mad that I think this was a terrible way to handle things, and I doubt whoever this vigilante is will do anything if they really believe they're acting out of justice.

[Not that that can't change in the future, because he's certainly seen that, but right now he's not worried.]

[ Drake shrugs, because he feels like they're saying the same thing with different framework. ]

I'm basically agreeing with you, Lance. But putting together consequences for an action that the general public agrees is bad... is a punishment for breaking an unspoken law. Taking it case by case doesn't really change that, and getting the whole city to agree on something is basically impossible. Seems like there's a reason the gods put everything to a vote and then just let us bicker until a majority appears. It's also dependent on people reporting things, and I'm betting I only know about maybe half the murders that have actually happened while I've been here. Because some people do have enough sense to want to avoid being killed repeatedly.

[ 'As for Caedra' indeed... Drake has to concede it. ]

Maybe she's just bored, sure. But that leads into the next question. Who walks up to the murderous demon and says, "hey, what would it take for you to give that a rest?" I've considered taking the risk, but don't really have a carrot or a stick.

Those are all valid points, but just because the solution to a problem is complicated or difficult doesn't mean we should just abandon the whole idea of coming up with one. Trying and failing to work something out is better than giving up and continuing with a 'solution' that's actively harmful.

[He gives a small shrug at the last question.]

I can do it. I've talked to her before, though I don't know her all that well; I was under the impression she'd mostly backed off on causing serious problems and so there didn't seem like a point to bringing the subject up again, but I don't have a problem speaking with her about this.

[She's... A little scary, sure, but the time he'd spoken with her before went fine and she sure doesn't seem like a mindless murder-machine or anything. Talking to her, especially somewhere public, should be fine and actually might get somewhere, although--]

There are also other people that know her better who might be willing to ask her.

[because fucking shitfuck he is in way too deep in this on all sides and doesn't want to be. If he sounds exhausted, well...weeks of fighting off irrational bouts of rage and depression (thanks gods), fighting monsters (again, thanks gods), and being in the presence of the Door to assist Sorrow kinda really takes a toll.

And now, this.]

The dumb shit is going to get his ass killed in horrible, lingering, tortuous ways, and not by me or anyone else. Caedra-ya is going to come out of that state pissed off and we can only hope she confines her retaliation to the offender and doesn't decide to take it out on the whole city.

But, Lance-ya. What good is it to appeal to legal transgression when there is no law, here?

Sure, but this is now. It always escalates.

[ Ephemera knows that better than most. He’s been responsible for it in the past. ]

Just be careful, okay?

[ A perhaps familiar face appears, though there's something different in the eyes and the camera is held far enough to show the components poking out of his head and shoulders at least -- DiMA's voice is also slower and gentler than Nick's, though to someone with a keen ear like Lance, very similar. ]

My apologizes in that I'm fairly new, so this information may have been public and I simply haven't yet read it... the woman encased in ice is not the first to actively threaten the population here?

[It has been kind of an exhausting month. Or months. Hadriel's just exhausting.

He also doesn't disagree with Law's assessment of the situation, and he has a few ideas, but first he needs to make sure he has the right impression of the situation--]

You and Caedra are friends, right? Or at least you know her pretty well?

[Because if that is right, maybe Law can help with limiting some of the fallout from this, although it may still be too late for that. As for the last part of things, he's... Not wrong.]

There's no law, you're right, so appealing to legal transgressions isn't an option. But there are still plenty of things people can do to influence a situation without jumping all the way to murder as their option, and social consequences can be just as--if not way more--effective than violence.

Edited (why did I delete part of the subject on autopilot? nobody knows) 2018-10-20 00:02 (UTC)

I'll be careful.

[He can promise that much, at least.]

[Huh. Well, it doesn't take many guesses to figure out which world DiMA's from, and Lance can't totally hide being briefly surprised by the sight of someone who looks so much like Nick and yet obviously isn't, but he soon puts that aside. Weirder things have happened, after all.]

I don't think anything's really public for you to have missed seeing, so don't worry. No, Caedra isn't the first person here to have been an active threat to the population; there have been a few others, some more and some less obvious than others.

[ DiMA is never completely certain if people are shocked by his appearance in general or foremost the resemblance, but he appreciates this man taking it in stride, since the current discussion is a bit more important. ]

And may I ask what discouragement they faced in doing so, if any? Or is the distressed young man before me correct in that consensuses are generally not reached?

I'm no stranger to dealing with such individuals, but was functioning with the understanding that besides the gods who usually come to us for input, no one is "in charge" here.

I wouldn't say I know her best, but yeah, I am one of few people who knows her well enough to anticipate the fallout. At least, this time.

If you think you can appeal to someone's sense of justice or whatever, I won't stop you, but I still think the end result is going to be words thrown into the wind. Logic has already flown out the window, they're reacting solely on irrational emotions, getting high on baby's first blood feud maybe. When good people lose their sense of proportion, they become the most evil of all.

[with a shade of been-there-done-that in his tone]

You don't see me running off to retaliate, after all, even if I'm one of maybe two or three people who can handle her.

Mostly it was just this, although I don't know of many efforts to actually work on a solution. People generally just step back and either avoid the issue entirely, or they get into these revenge cycles.

You're right that there's no one in charge here, at least not officially.

Do you know her well enough to know why she does what she does?

[The whole murder and havoc thing, he means.]

I know, I've seen what people do when they get too convinced that they're acting 'for the greater good' and start justifying everything they do, no matter how terrible it is.

[His tone isn't argumentative; he's agreeing, and that's why he thinks this is such a problem.]

But even if this does end up being ignored, and people keep doing what they're doing, it's still worth trying. Otherwise they have an actual argument to keep acting on their own, because no one's trying to do anything else.

I doubt belaboring the point will really matter. You may be able to help the ignorant, but not the foolish.

[Jade sighs loudly, because this kind of rash behavior truly bothers him. Revenge? Retribution? It reminds him of unpleasantries from his past, for sure, but also reminds him of the stupidity of man. The struggle of two sides against each other destroying any chance of peace.

Very stupid.]

The best we can expect is to stop any more idiotic back-and-forth over something so petty as vengeance. On either side. Not that I'm particularly knowledgeable on what has been going on with this Caedra person. I just happen to have an aversion to this kind of nonsense. Perhaps it's the soldier side of me.

Hmm. You do have a point; then again, I don't know that I can be much help there. Except to use my ability to slow people down and give them time to think about what they've done.

[Trafalgar Law, better at making people take time outs than giving them therapy!]

As for Caedra-ya, well. You know that I like comparative physiology...so I've studied her on that level. She belongs to a species that lacks the capacity for what humans call morals. It isn't a conscious choice, it's her actual physiological makeup. Getting her not to do...what she does, isn't a matter of reasoning or appealing to a moral center she doesn't even physically possess. The only thing I've seen that works is diverting her impulses to something besides murdering a person.

I'd kill her myself if I thought I could, and if she would stay dead. There's worse I have to kill at home; there must be a way to do it here.

[Sweets may not know Jon outside of some intermittent network usage, but it's still possible that he might have observed that Jon and Margaery are friends -- Margaery, who Caedra had killed for sport.

As to his authority on this matter: he's not exactly a king here, and he doesn't usually press that. But the word vigilante means exactly nothing to him, and if he were to mete out what he sees as justice, it would be as a king and as a protector of those who need it.]

But it's the matter of her staying dead that's the problem. I can't believe Hope wants her alive, but Fear or Rage -- they must. Confusion. Whatever people feel when they're faced with her.

Does anyone think she'll be an asset against the Null? At least she wouldn't be bored.

Edited 2018-10-20 04:00 (UTC)

Exactly how often does vigilante justice happen around here?
Like I know about this case, and a while back there was a post threatening it, but I don't know what came of that.
Do you know of a lot of these, or?

[Surely this is a perfectly reasonable question that no one will be suspicious of. Mostly he just wants to know what Lance knows.]

One could argue that the fact that we have no official form of government or anything like that in place here means the that only form of justice we have at all is vigilante justice. When new arrivals show up in the colosseum, we're the ones that help them with the monsters. When crazy demon ladies decide that murdering randos sounds fun, we're the ones that have to deal with it. We don't have a government or the police or the FBI or whatever looking out for us. We've got the Guard, sure, but guess what? They're just a better organized team of vigilantes. We're technically all vigilantes out here, man, and we all have to look out for each other, because nobody else is going to. Morally, I think it would be worse to stand by and do nothing.

Can't argue with your logic point, though. Like, the thing that just happened with the demon lady and the ice? Kind of the worst idea ever. As soon as she thaws out, she's gonna go nuclear and we're probably all going to have to deal with the fallout. That, or she'll just go after the person who did the ice thing, which I'm still not okay with.

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014 [Video] /dated to a few hours after Yusuke's anon post

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