014 [Video] /dated to a few hours after Yusuke's anon post

[lifetothefullest]

[Lance looks a little over life at the moment, which most of his friends probably recognize as his standard look when not being purposefully professional. He's not bothering with the latter right now, both because he's a bit annoyed and because he thinks it would be pointless, so instead everyone gets normal, slightly bitchy Lance.]

Okay, I wish I could say that I can't believe I have to remind people of this, but vigilante justice is not exactly the best idea here. Not only is it morally wrong to just declare yourself to have the authority to decide who is and isn't deserving of 'justice', but it's logically wrong too; you're just going to cause problems, not solve them.

I'm not saying not to intervene when something's actively happening, but going after someone days or weeks later is just starting the whole process of retaliation all over again. So can everyone just take their egos down a notch and, if they're concerned about someone being an active threat or something, work on coming up with some sort of solution that isn't going to make things worse as soon as it's done?

[This is not the first time he's had to go into this discussion while here--or at home--and so that's why he's being extra short about it. He's also not just talking about the recent incident, it's simply what prompted him to say something this time.]

Comments

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[braveoff]

[ Drake is reasonably certain this is about the demon popsicle, who will see this post when she thaws out... so maybe he shouldn't make himself a public enemy by responding honestly but also? Whatever. ]

The term I usually wind up using is "endless death cycle" and yeah. They're bad. Don't start those. I've personally stopped a few when I could, and I'm worried this vigilante's gonna wind up in one too.

Except we've never actually come up with a good method of containing serial killers or sadists or whoever, here, especially when they're super powerful. Nobody can agree what to do so they run free and do a lot of murder until they just leave, eventually. In this case it's been six months of steady attacks and the vast majority of us are no use.

Ideas? I'll have the conversation again if anyone has one this time.

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[lifetothefullest]

[Lance is way past caring if someone gets mad about something he says in a post or subsequent conversations, especially after being so careful about the whole thing with Maketh and then it going very bad very fast.]

Last time I was asked how to handle one of these situations I was ignored, then it turned out my solution ended up happening on its own a little while later and, surprise, I was completely right and it worked. Because this is kind of my job.

[Sorry Drake, that isn't directly at you, he's just still mad about that. But the point is--]

We're all stuck here together, and so we need to try to work together, and that includes people who are causing problems; usually they're doing what they're doing for a reason, and figuring out that reason helps with deciding on a better way of getting whatever they get out of what they're doing.

In the case of Caedra, she's also not human. Not that we should just be okay with murder, but it does mean that we should take that into consideration when coming up with some sort of solution.

[He's no demon expert, but he's going to take a guess that their psychological needs and culture is not exactly an identical match for humans. Obviously that doesn't mean she can just murder whoever she wants, but it does mean she should be treated a little differently than a human would be.]

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[requiemshark]

[ Not too long ago, Ephemera would have been fully on board with the vengeance at any cost crowd. How much time has passed since then depends on who you ask. Now he mostly feels tired when he thinks about the dead - his dead - and the people who made them that way. He looks tired in the video, too. ]

This really a good idea, Doc?

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[lifetothefullest]

Which part of it?

[Annoyed though he is, it's at the situation and not Ephemera, so he's careful to make sure his tone is neutral.]

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[hot_mes]

[because fucking shitfuck he is in way too deep in this on all sides and doesn't want to be. If he sounds exhausted, well...weeks of fighting off irrational bouts of rage and depression (thanks gods), fighting monsters (again, thanks gods), and being in the presence of the Door to assist Sorrow kinda really takes a toll.

And now, this.]

The dumb shit is going to get his ass killed in horrible, lingering, tortuous ways, and not by me or anyone else. Caedra-ya is going to come out of that state pissed off and we can only hope she confines her retaliation to the offender and doesn't decide to take it out on the whole city.

But, Lance-ya. What good is it to appeal to legal transgression when there is no law, here?

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[lifetothefullest]

[It has been kind of an exhausting month. Or months. Hadriel's just exhausting.

He also doesn't disagree with Law's assessment of the situation, and he has a few ideas, but first he needs to make sure he has the right impression of the situation--]

You and Caedra are friends, right? Or at least you know her pretty well?

[Because if that is right, maybe Law can help with limiting some of the fallout from this, although it may still be too late for that. As for the last part of things, he's... Not wrong.]

There's no law, you're right, so appealing to legal transgressions isn't an option. But there are still plenty of things people can do to influence a situation without jumping all the way to murder as their option, and social consequences can be just as--if not way more--effective than violence.

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[offloaded]

[ A perhaps familiar face appears, though there's something different in the eyes and the camera is held far enough to show the components poking out of his head and shoulders at least -- DiMA's voice is also slower and gentler than Nick's, though to someone with a keen ear like Lance, very similar. ]

My apologizes in that I'm fairly new, so this information may have been public and I simply haven't yet read it... the woman encased in ice is not the first to actively threaten the population here?

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[lifetothefullest]

[Huh. Well, it doesn't take many guesses to figure out which world DiMA's from, and Lance can't totally hide being briefly surprised by the sight of someone who looks so much like Nick and yet obviously isn't, but he soon puts that aside. Weirder things have happened, after all.]

I don't think anything's really public for you to have missed seeing, so don't worry. No, Caedra isn't the first person here to have been an active threat to the population; there have been a few others, some more and some less obvious than others.

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[tenuousmorality]

I doubt belaboring the point will really matter. You may be able to help the ignorant, but not the foolish.

[Jade sighs loudly, because this kind of rash behavior truly bothers him. Revenge? Retribution? It reminds him of unpleasantries from his past, for sure, but also reminds him of the stupidity of man. The struggle of two sides against each other destroying any chance of peace.

Very stupid.]

The best we can expect is to stop any more idiotic back-and-forth over something so petty as vengeance. On either side. Not that I'm particularly knowledgeable on what has been going on with this Caedra person. I just happen to have an aversion to this kind of nonsense. Perhaps it's the soldier side of me.

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[lifetothefullest]

I'm choosing to believe that there might be some people who haven't thought about what consequences might come from their actions.

[Although he doubts that's the case, and thinks most of the people here who do something like this genuinely think they've thought the whole thing out. But still, he's been wrong and he'd like to be wrong in this case.]

Yeah. I don't agree with what Caedra's doing or has done at all, but I just don't think going after her like this solves anything; it just makes problems worse. Since my job at home is specifically figuring out how and why people participate in criminal behavior, watching people do things like this is a little frustrating.

[Putting it mildly. But basically yeah, he's in total agreement on the aversion to this kind of nonsense.]

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[northerndragon]

I'd kill her myself if I thought I could, and if she would stay dead. There's worse I have to kill at home; there must be a way to do it here.

[Sweets may not know Jon outside of some intermittent network usage, but it's still possible that he might have observed that Jon and Margaery are friends -- Margaery, who Caedra had killed for sport.

As to his authority on this matter: he's not exactly a king here, and he doesn't usually press that. But the word vigilante means exactly nothing to him, and if he were to mete out what he sees as justice, it would be as a king and as a protector of those who need it.]

But it's the matter of her staying dead that's the problem. I can't believe Hope wants her alive, but Fear or Rage -- they must. Confusion. Whatever people feel when they're faced with her.

Does anyone think she'll be an asset against the Null? At least she wouldn't be bored.

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[lifetothefullest]

For the record, I don't condone killing people.

[Just putting that out there; he's against the whole thing in general, at least outside of self-defense. Hunting down and killing someone for past crimes doesn't fall under that, as far as he's concerned.

But ideological differences aside, Jon obviously gets that it doesn't even work as a solution--terrible or otherwise--here, and that's about as much as he can ask for.]

Maybe; I think her group encountered some Null during the expedition to find Door pieces, actually.

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[aroundthecoroner]

Exactly how often does vigilante justice happen around here?
Like I know about this case, and a while back there was a post threatening it, but I don't know what came of that.
Do you know of a lot of these, or?

[Surely this is a perfectly reasonable question that no one will be suspicious of. Mostly he just wants to know what Lance knows.]

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[lifetothefullest]

[No reason to be suspicious at all. None. But Lance offers the truth anyway--]

I don't know for sure, but I know of multiple people who have at least made plans if not gone through with it and I'd guess most of them actually acted.

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[itsnotaonesie]

One could argue that the fact that we have no official form of government or anything like that in place here means the that only form of justice we have at all is vigilante justice. When new arrivals show up in the colosseum, we're the ones that help them with the monsters. When crazy demon ladies decide that murdering randos sounds fun, we're the ones that have to deal with it. We don't have a government or the police or the FBI or whatever looking out for us. We've got the Guard, sure, but guess what? They're just a better organized team of vigilantes. We're technically all vigilantes out here, man, and we all have to look out for each other, because nobody else is going to. Morally, I think it would be worse to stand by and do nothing.

Can't argue with your logic point, though. Like, the thing that just happened with the demon lady and the ice? Kind of the worst idea ever. As soon as she thaws out, she's gonna go nuclear and we're probably all going to have to deal with the fallout. That, or she'll just go after the person who did the ice thing, which I'm still not okay with.

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[lifetothefullest]

You're right, and I should've used a different term or specified more clearly. I meant it in terms of one person individually deciding they have the right to use violence in dealing with another person, outside of a self-defense situation, in retaliation for some past event.

We do all need to look out for each other, but that should involve cooperation, not one person making decisions that affect everyone. That goes for other situations here too, not just this one.

Yeah, I'm hoping we can avoid that situation, but right both of those options seem likely.

[Audio]

[bespectacledsnake]

It is a...a noble point you make, certainly, but I do not know how effective it will be.

We are, after all, all trapped here and death is impermanent. That sort of arrangement will naturally breed trouble.

[Audio]

[lifetothefullest]

It definitely breeds trouble, but leaving that trouble unchecked just because it might be difficult to control isn't an acceptable option.

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[ghostlocked]

ur talkin abt the shit w. caedra im assuming.
im also assuming u hadnt heard of her bein up to anything nefarious lately. i was worried id missed something.
im not looking forward to the fallout when she defrosts in a month.
do u know who did it?

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[lifetothefullest]

Yeah. It's totally possible I missed something more recent that happened, but since the last time someone wanted to go on a vengeance spree it was about something that had happened weeks previously I wouldn't be surprised if it was nothing recent.

I don't know, no.

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[evocation]

[Ah, Lance, her boy as always. Kyna lets out a long-suffering, frustrated sigh, rolling her eyes for good measure.]

I feel like I shouldn't have to add that going toe to toe with a fucking demon unless you're like... actively trying to save someone is a dumb idea, but here we are.

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[lifetothefullest]

Yeah, speaking of which, it isn't fair to put the people here who can deal with her in the position of having to do so if she retaliates for this.

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[murderpotato]

yeah i get what youre sayin about not havin some fucker pop off and get some vengeance and all that shit but

caedras also kinda a fuckin bitch so i aint all that upset that somebody took her down a couple notches. hate to say it but she had it comin for a long time and i aint really surprised that somebody finally got sick of her gettin off scot free after bein a fuckin asshole and tryin to straight up murder people.

somebodys gotta get it through this bitchs head that this kinda bullshit behavior aint gonna fly. so yeah she might throw a fuckin hissyfit when she thaws out and maybe when she does we should put her back on fuckin ice until she gets the hint. if we aint been able to talk her into not bein a shit maybe we gotta be a little forceful.

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[lifetothefullest]

Morally I can't exactly agree, but logically I'd be more inclined to do so if this was the first time but I'm pretty sure it isn't. If it hasn't worked before now, it probably isn't going to this time.

I also don't know if anyone's actually tried talking to her.

[Video]

[oldtonew]

[ A large green woman with a red hair and tusks is peering curiously into the camera. She's also holding the phone upside down. ]

You would deny righteous vengeance?

[Video]

[lifetothefullest]

[Okay the upside-down thing is kind of endearing, even if what she says really isn't.]

I don't think it's the best idea for people to take it upon themselves, individually, to decide they have the right to cause someone else harm. Sometimes it might be a case where you can argue it's justified, but it also leads to the question of where that 'righteous vengeance' ends; does Caedra have the right to enact it on the person who did this to her, now?

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[unphase]

[this place makes less and less sense and seems more and more backwards by the day. so have a video of a confused looking fifteen year old girl wearing something that looks like a costume]

So this is something that happens often? People taking the law into their own hands?

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[lifetothefullest]

Often enough that it's been a problem, yes.

[Unfortunately.]

text; a couple of days later bc dumb bitch juice had her out of commission

[dedikated]

Banging your head off a wall's faster.

( Like, she gets the point, she agrees with the point after how much she's seen in this place, but Lance... you know no one's gonna listen if they're convinced of their righteousness. )

text; kate plz

[lifetothefullest]

Definitely, but then again doing nothing just leads to an even more prolonged pain.

[Once that comes from having to deal with this sort of nonsense all the time.]

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[stealyoursoul]

Sometimes, declaring yourself judge, jury, and executioner is the only way, especially if you have the power to stop someone when no on else possesses it.

[Yeah, this whole thing is definitely striking a nerve with Leo. Partially because Caedra is someone he actually kind of likes, and partially because he knows he's been hypocritical in not taking her out to begin with. She's a sinner and deserves everything that is coming to her.]

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[lifetothefullest]

In the moment, maybe.

[He doesn't judge people who kill in self-defense, or to get out of a situation they couldn't otherwise escape. But planned vengeance days or weeks after an event doesn't count.]

But every other time I've seen someone give themselves that right, they've ended up just as bad as the people they've decided they need to stop. And not for killing their target, but for the other things they find acceptable and justify to themselves in the process.

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[claritatis]

[Ignis is... exhausted, and he can't remember the last time he had a full night of uninterrupted sleep, but over two weeks of near-constant visual and auditory hallucinations will do that to a person.

Still, he hasn't stepped away from the Guard yet, and he's doing his damned hardest to keep his poor state to himself, but the edges are visibly starting to fray.]

There may be situations in which this kind of response would be acceptable... but given Caedra's previous behaviour, this is certainly not one of them. [He pauses, briefly, to rub his thumb and forefinger under his eyes and to pinch the bridge of his nose for a moment.

To his knowledge, this exact thing is why the Guard don't operate as well as they could. It's too difficult to maintain any kind of order, let alone like this.]

I'm sure I'm not alone in my concern for the general safety of everyone here when the demon finally thaws.

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[lifetothefullest]

[Lance doesn't really think there's any time when this particular situation in acceptable, but he's not going to argue about it; he gets the sentiment. So instead he'll just focus on the main problem.]

There have been some discussions about how to handle what might happen when the magic wears off, so there's some tentative hope that it won't be as bad as it could be.

[audio]

[synthedick]

It seems we have to say this again every so often, and each time it goes in one ear and out the other. I'm not saying doing nothing is the right call, but shaking the hornet's nest isn't going to do us any good, either.

[He's admittedly galled to have to defend Caedra in any way, and he can't say she didn't have it coming; however, the potential consequences far outweigh what satisfaction he can get from a modicum of justice having been dealt, especially when there are a lot of innocent lives on the line.

His irritation bubbles, fueled by the emotions that seem to seep into the very air of the city.]

I'm willing to bet our vigilante is the type who is frustrated the Guard hasn't done anything about her.

[Because yeah, that's a thing they have to remind the city about over and over again, too.]

[audio]

[lifetothefullest]

Yeah, unfortunately we don't have a lot of great options, but people are really fast to throw out a workable solution just because it isn't perfect if it's not as appealing to them.

[And violence is a lot more appealing to a lot of people. As for the Guard--]

Maybe. It might be time for another reminder of what the Guard is and isn't.

[He carefully doesn't mention that last time the Guard got involved with something like this is was nearly a disaster, and that this whole thing now is reminding him a lot of that time; none of that was Nick's fault, and although there's a sizeable part of Lance that's quite bitter about the whole thing he doesn't want to complain at Nick about people that are no longer even here.]