hadriel | one; voice {my mathematical mind can see the breaks}.

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one; voice {my mathematical mind can see the breaks}.

[Oh hey, look, it's a (fairly) new kid on the network. And he has a question for y'all.]

Hey, everyone. My name's Alvin Draper and I'm pretty new here, so I apologize if this is a question that's been asked before, but it seemed ... relevant, given some of the more recent discussions here.

[I.e., that whole "should we kill Delight" poll, which Tim is still actively side-eyeing the hell out of everyone here over. Except Lance. Lance is the only sane person here and has the correct opinion on murder.]

I'm just curious - [because he wants to know exactly what kinds of psychos he's landed with] - under what circumstances do you believe it's acceptable to kill someone, and why do you believe that?

[Please cite your sources using MLA format, thanks!]

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You're in the wrong crowd to be asking that one.

[He sounds slightly amused by the question.]

For the record? Most of them.

[ Wash actually stops and thinks about this -- he's already had the debate over whether to kill or imprison Delight and came down on the side of kill. His usual side. He's killed a lot of people, for a lot of reasons, and while he wouldn't necessarily make those same choices knowing what he does now he doesn't feel like he was wrong for any of them. Not in the moment, at least. ]

When they're a threat. It's about risk assessment.

We spoke briefly about this earlier, but it's no secret what my opinion on this matter is.

[So might as well state it for the record.]

It's acceptable in a case of immediate self-defense, in which you have a reasonable belief that there's no other viable course of action available to prevent serious harm to yourself or someone else. Almost any other time, there are other options and no reason to resort to violence at all.

[Let alone to kill someone; it's pretty much just murder then. There are rare cases that don't fall directly into either category, hence Lance's caveat of 'almost any other time', but for the most part this holds.]

Your name is Alvin? Oh man, that's shitty.

[richie pls.]

My parents were old-fashioned. It could've been worse - if I'd been a girl, I think they were planning to name me Gertrude.

What's the use in polling people on something like this? Either you do it or you don't. If the way other people think about it affects what you do, you've got no business killing anyone.

You got somebody in mind?

[Given that he doesn't have many close friends here--and he doesn't think those that he does have have pissed off anyone recently--he's not too worried. But it helps to check.]

[That would be why he's asking the question - to gauge the crowd.]

OK, so what would you consider a situation where it's not acceptable to kill someone?

[Well, it's slightly more sane response than "all/most of the time," which is honestly what Tim expects to hear from the majority of people who respond.]

So what criteria do you use for that assessment?

Yeah ... that seems to be the real question though, what's reasonable. Seems like a lot of people here have a much shorter measurement for that than the rest of us. There are plenty of ways to disarm an opponent that are nonlethal, but I get the feeling that's not even a consideration, a lot of the time.

No. I don't kill people.

[Like, ever. He wanted to one time, but that was a really special circumstance and he got over it. But he's also met a future version of himself who was fine with killing, and in light of the discussion over Delight's fate, Tim's attempting to puzzle some things out.]

Like I said, I'm just curious to know who here does and why they think that way.

Although I don't disagree, and I'd prefer people show more discretion, at this point I'm less concerned about an overreaction in the midst of a fight and more about the willingness to justify killing someone outside of one.

[Not that he likes the jump to lethal means in a fight when it isn't totally necessary, but it's low on the list of things people here will do.]

That's complicated.

The easy answer is to survive. It's acceptable to kill to save your life or someone else's.

It gets harder when you think about special situations, like someone killing the person who's abused them for a long time. Or people who might even be brainwashed into killing, made to believe they had no other choice. Or people who are mentally ill and aren't aware of what they're doing.

[He snorts.]

Lotta people out there barely need a reason.

[But he sighs, and some of the derision leaves his voice as he offers his own answer.]

I don't like that kinda thing, but I'm not gonna say no if my boss says it needs done. And then there're the obvious reasons to do it, like if your family's on the line. You'd kill somebody then, wouldn't you?

[ This is a personal one. A subject Marko and Alana had discussed several times, since long before Hazel was even born.

Something that gives her a pang in her heart, thinking about her husband.

She finds herself answering anyway, quiet, serious. ]

...only if you absolutely have to.

[ And, sometimes, you do.

Sometimes, you wish you had to, you wish you didn't have any ways out of it.

Sometimes, you want to make people pay for the things they've done, to you, to your family, your loved ones.

Sometimes, trying to hold a moral high ground sucks. And, sometimes, you wish you didn't have to be the bigger person. ]

When they're civilians. Or your people.

Just because someone does it,
it doesn't mean they think it's acceptable.
Sometimes people do things they know are wrong,
and they don't make excuses.
Anyway what's the point of this?
Waiting for the bad answers so you can judge us all?
If this is about Delight,
that situation is complicated.

[ That's a difficult question. Wash has never had to break down his thought process like this before, and he usually only has a few moments to make the judgment call. It happens fast. This whole thing with Delight is very different. ]

It depends on the situation. Sometimes it's simple, kill or be killed during a fight. Even if everyone's just following orders, people where I'm from mean business. If you give them a chance to stand down and they don't stop coming, they've probably just gotta go to be safe.

I've spared enemies before and it's always bitten me in the ass. Eventually, you stop making that mistake. I'm not saying killing is ever right but containment isn't always an option.

[ He goes quiet, thinking of Carolina. How hard she tried to spare Sharkface. All the times they didn't check that an enemy was really dead, and it cost them somehow later. They've discussed packing it in after this war. No more fighting, no more killing. Wash isn't sure that it's even possible, with how trouble seems to chase them. ]

You do what you have to, to protect your people.

Are you looking for ways to justify murder?

What?! No.

[God, what is wrong with you people!!]

I don't kill people, and I don't advocate for it, either. I'm just trying to find out who here does.

So you're used to fighting. Military? [He's guessing, by how Wash talks of following orders and enemies.] Do you ever consider nonlethal methods of incapacitating your opponent?

[Partly about Delight, but more of a general risk assessment.]

Maybe I just want to get a better idea of whether people here are likely to come slit my throat while I'm asleep.

[That's a joke; Tim Drake doesn't sleep.]

If you know something is wrong and you're not making an excuse - like the end justifying the means? - why do it anyway?

So everyone else is fair game? Which category do you put people here under?

As a general rule, I never make it my place to decide who deserves to die. I am merely tasked with the cleanup.

[Way to be vague, Ravine. And no, she isn't going to elaborate.]

However, I do believe in that rule.

In the case with others, it is natural that many of them would favor death over a potential risk in the near or distant future. I do not agree, mind you, but fear and anger can be powerful motivators.

World's simple. There's your people and there's everyone else. I know my people. Everyone else? Maybe they're okay, maybe they wanna shoot my people in the face. They try that, they go down.

Here? Most people are just doing there own thing.

[It's a more encouraging answer than he was expecting to hear from people here. However ... ]

How do you determine when it's necessary? By what parameters?

[The Colony thought it was necessary to eliminate hundreds of suspected sleeper agents for the League of Shadows - suspected in error, and if Tim hadn't reprogrammed their entire drone army to target himself instead, those hundreds of innocent civilians would've been killed, needlessly.]

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