one; voice {my mathematical mind can see the breaks}.

[justmath]

[Oh hey, look, it's a (fairly) new kid on the network. And he has a question for y'all.]

Hey, everyone. My name's Alvin Draper and I'm pretty new here, so I apologize if this is a question that's been asked before, but it seemed ... relevant, given some of the more recent discussions here.

[I.e., that whole "should we kill Delight" poll, which Tim is still actively side-eyeing the hell out of everyone here over. Except Lance. Lance is the only sane person here and has the correct opinion on murder.]

I'm just curious - [because he wants to know exactly what kinds of psychos he's landed with] - under what circumstances do you believe it's acceptable to kill someone, and why do you believe that?

[Please cite your sources using MLA format, thanks!]

Comments

[Voice]

[requiemshark]

You're in the wrong crowd to be asking that one.

[He sounds slightly amused by the question.]

For the record? Most of them.

[Voice]

[justmath]

[That would be why he's asking the question - to gauge the crowd.]

OK, so what would you consider a situation where it's not acceptable to kill someone?

voice;

[hardwearing]

[ Wash actually stops and thinks about this -- he's already had the debate over whether to kill or imprison Delight and came down on the side of kill. His usual side. He's killed a lot of people, for a lot of reasons, and while he wouldn't necessarily make those same choices knowing what he does now he doesn't feel like he was wrong for any of them. Not in the moment, at least. ]

When they're a threat. It's about risk assessment.

voice;

[justmath]

[Well, it's slightly more sane response than "all/most of the time," which is honestly what Tim expects to hear from the majority of people who respond.]

So what criteria do you use for that assessment?

[Voice]

[lifetothefullest]

We spoke briefly about this earlier, but it's no secret what my opinion on this matter is.

[So might as well state it for the record.]

It's acceptable in a case of immediate self-defense, in which you have a reasonable belief that there's no other viable course of action available to prevent serious harm to yourself or someone else. Almost any other time, there are other options and no reason to resort to violence at all.

[Let alone to kill someone; it's pretty much just murder then. There are rare cases that don't fall directly into either category, hence Lance's caveat of 'almost any other time', but for the most part this holds.]

[Voice]

[justmath]

Yeah ... that seems to be the real question though, what's reasonable. Seems like a lot of people here have a much shorter measurement for that than the rest of us. There are plenty of ways to disarm an opponent that are nonlethal, but I get the feeling that's not even a consideration, a lot of the time.

text;

[trashmouths]

Your name is Alvin? Oh man, that's shitty.

voice.

[justmath]

[richie pls.]

My parents were old-fashioned. It could've been worse - if I'd been a girl, I think they were planning to name me Gertrude.

voice

[foundafamily]

What's the use in polling people on something like this? Either you do it or you don't. If the way other people think about it affects what you do, you've got no business killing anyone.

You got somebody in mind?

[Given that he doesn't have many close friends here--and he doesn't think those that he does have have pissed off anyone recently--he's not too worried. But it helps to check.]

voice

[justmath]

No. I don't kill people.

[Like, ever. He wanted to one time, but that was a really special circumstance and he got over it. But he's also met a future version of himself who was fine with killing, and in light of the discussion over Delight's fate, Tim's attempting to puzzle some things out.]

Like I said, I'm just curious to know who here does and why they think that way.

voice

[am_i_a_monster]

That's complicated.

The easy answer is to survive. It's acceptable to kill to save your life or someone else's.

It gets harder when you think about special situations, like someone killing the person who's abused them for a long time. Or people who might even be brainwashed into killing, made to believe they had no other choice. Or people who are mentally ill and aren't aware of what they're doing.

voice

[justmath]

[The first part, that's a fairly common answer he's heard. But the rest of it ... that's interesting. Different, and interesting.]

If you've been brainwashed, you're not in control of yourself. If you'd been coerced to kill under those circumstances, I don't think any reasonable person would hold you responsible for that.

Voice

[badchoicesmadeeasy]

[ This is a personal one. A subject Marko and Alana had discussed several times, since long before Hazel was even born.

Something that gives her a pang in her heart, thinking about her husband.

She finds herself answering anyway, quiet, serious. ]

...only if you absolutely have to.

[ And, sometimes, you do.

Sometimes, you wish you had to, you wish you didn't have any ways out of it.

Sometimes, you want to make people pay for the things they've done, to you, to your family, your loved ones.

Sometimes, trying to hold a moral high ground sucks. And, sometimes, you wish you didn't have to be the bigger person. ]

Voice

[justmath]

[It's a more encouraging answer than he was expecting to hear from people here. However ... ]

How do you determine when it's necessary? By what parameters?

[The Colony thought it was necessary to eliminate hundreds of suspected sleeper agents for the League of Shadows - suspected in error, and if Tim hadn't reprogrammed their entire drone army to target himself instead, those hundreds of innocent civilians would've been killed, needlessly.]

[text]

[aroundthecoroner]

Just because someone does it,
it doesn't mean they think it's acceptable.
Sometimes people do things they know are wrong,
and they don't make excuses.
Anyway what's the point of this?
Waiting for the bad answers so you can judge us all?
If this is about Delight,
that situation is complicated.

[text]

[justmath]

[Partly about Delight, but more of a general risk assessment.]

Maybe I just want to get a better idea of whether people here are likely to come slit my throat while I'm asleep.

[That's a joke; Tim Drake doesn't sleep.]

If you know something is wrong and you're not making an excuse - like the end justifying the means? - why do it anyway?

voice;

[storyseeker]

Are you looking for ways to justify murder?

voice;

[justmath]

What?! No.

[God, what is wrong with you people!!]

I don't kill people, and I don't advocate for it, either. I'm just trying to find out who here does.

[voice]

[whip_poor_will]

As a general rule, I never make it my place to decide who deserves to die. I am merely tasked with the cleanup.

[Way to be vague, Ravine. And no, she isn't going to elaborate.]

However, I do believe in that rule.

In the case with others, it is natural that many of them would favor death over a potential risk in the near or distant future. I do not agree, mind you, but fear and anger can be powerful motivators.

[voice]

[justmath]

[Even without knowing all the details of the circumstances, Tim definitely saw fear and anger at work with this business regarding Delight.]

So are you some kind of contract killer?

[Yeah, like he's not gonna ask.]

Voice

[knifecollecting]

To protect others. If you have to.

Voice

[justmath]

But why would you have to? There are plenty of nonlethal ways of protecting people.

audio;

[hasitsthorns]

Never.

[ Says the murdering murder who murders. ]

And because I have killed people. That blood don't wash away as easily as you'd hope it does.

audio;

[justmath]

[Well - Tim doesn't expect this answer at all, given the responses he's already received.]

... I'm sorry.

voice.

[puzzlingly]

Are you having an existential crisis? Or are you thinking about killing someone?

voice.

[justmath]

[Snappy and slightly sarcastic:] Nope - are you?

( text )

[ghoulaid]

yeah lemme just sit u down and tell u all about how & when & why i decide to dust a motherfucker
thats cool itll be real fun and not used against my ass in no way im sure......
lol. the fuck outta here

( text )

[justmath]

Or.

Just a thought here, but if you have nothing relevant to add to the discussion, you could just keep scrolling.

audio

[outofthefire]

That's easy. When it's them or you, you choose you.

audio

[justmath]

Why do you assume that you have to choose between only those two options?

[text]

[sciencelizard]

i mean id
id like to say its never
and i dont think i could kill somebody
but if someone tries to kill you or your friends you have to stop them somehow right

[text]

[justmath]

There are nonlethal ways to stop someone from killing you.

video

[bythewaves]

[ Child so Maglor restrains his more dangerous impulses ]

When the Enemy is at your gates, when the drums of war sound, what other choice is there? When you are betrayed by one you thought faithful, and your king and kin and people die for your mistake. Those are all good reasons, I think.

But unless I miss your guess, you ask about Delight, eh? I am from an old world, and I have lost my family too often to betrayers to be kind, any longer. Although I suppose, considering my sins, I should not be too quick to cast stones, as my brother reminds me. But she brought the enemy to our gates - and little though we may like our captors, the Null wished us dead. I am too old to be thinking of forgiveness.

video

[justmath]

And here I didn't think forgiveness had an age limit.

[paragonbrosca]

[Getting right to the point.]

Is this a real survey or are you just interested in calling people out?

[justmath]

I'm really interested to know what people here think.

[farmboyjedi]

I kill only to defend myself. I am mostly a man of peace. I'm a warrior, but I prefer not to use violence if it can be avoided. It's the way of the Order I follow...a Jedi does not attack without good reason and uses only what force is necessary, but only when it can't be avoided.

To kill when it isn't necessary is something dark and cruel. I have seen what happens to those like me to fall into darkness, and I do not want to become like them.

Like my father...

[justmath]

Funny, all the martial arts I've studied put an emphasis on self-control. I mean, what do I know, I don't belong to an Order.

[resistancemedic]

I usually work saving lives, but I've had to kill a few times to defend myself. I like to avoid it if I can, but back home, the situation we're in forces us to do what we need to for survival. I'm happier trying to avoid killing, but if it comes down to them attacking my husband or I...I'll do it.

Terminators don't count, they aren't human. She has no problem destroying machines.

[justmath]

There are plenty of ways to disable an opponent that aren't lethal.

[And he's getting a little tired of reminding everyone about this, honestly.]