012 [Video]

[lifetothefullest]

[It's a nice, quiet day in Hadriel, at least as far as city-wide things go, but who knows how long that'll last. So Lance is taking advantage of it, both in terms of going out for a walk to get some fresh air and also making a post on the network; he has something important to talk about, after all.]

Hello everyone. I'd like to preface what I'm about to ask by saying that I understand some here may have concerns regarding speaking about this subject over the network, and so if you would prefer to talk in person I'm willing to meet with you.

[Another reason it being a nice day is helpful.]

I'm interested in hearing opinions on the issue of the Null that posted to the network a few weeks ago. In such a complicated situation it's difficult to consider all information and every possibility, and the people here have such vastly different experiences that can lead to unique conclusions and insights. The more ideas and reasons we all have to consider, the better informed our choices can be.

[Including, potentially, ideas of what to do about the situation other than the obvious two of 'kill it' or 'let it live happily ever after'.]

If you were not here for the last battle with the Null your opinion is just as important as those of the people who were present, as you're providing a viewpoint that, although lacking in specific experience, makes up for it with objectivity.

[In other words, they may not have a personal grudge against the Null that affects their opinions.]

I'd also like to note that this is all completely voluntary, and if you don't want to share your opinion that's fine; I'm just interested in hearing what people think and why, particularly due to experience and insight I may not have on a subject like this. Additionally, individuals who are still undecided in where they stand could benefit from hearing points and arguments they may not have had a chance to consider before.

Thank you.

[Considering this is such a serious topic, it can't hurt to be a little extra polite when asking people to do something potentially dangerous, right?]

Comments

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[igniting]

[Oh, Aloy has Opinions.]

I think arguing that we should kill it outright without trying to assess what sort of threat it may or may not pose is short sighted and ridiculous. It could be a valuable resource, especially considering the other Null would kill it on sight.

[Yeah, that could have been said much more tactfully.]

I also think there are enough of us here with experience repairing machines that whatever communication systems it might still have could be destroyed or disrupted. I wasn't here during the last attack, but I've dealt with machines like the Null in my world.

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[lifetothefullest]

[Yes, good, excellent; Aloy is one of the people that Name had mentioned, so her opinion is especially interesting to Lance.

And sure, maybe it could've been put more tactfully, but her assessment certainly seems reasonable.]

So you think the potential benefits outweigh the risks, and that those risks can be mitigated by the particular skills and expertise of some of the individuals here?

[Just being clear, but also seeing if she adds anything to it other than the purely logical argument.]

What do you mean regarding machines like the Null being in your world?

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[thelastjoy]

For all we know that thing is just a trap waitin' to happen. People let it in 'round here and we'll all regret it.

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[lifetothefullest]

That's entirely possible. Do you believe it's more likely to be a trap than not, or are you erring on the side of caution?

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[kingforboth]

[It may have taken Kelson a few tries to get the video vaguely in the right position. Or at least so it was actually facing him. He was still new at this whole 'technology' thing. As he spoke, Kelson's words were steady, even and confident. While he may not be familiar with technology, this was a topic he was intimately familiar with.]

While I might not have been here for the battle with the Null, I have been in similar situations. I understand that many here value mercy, a kindness which should not be underestimated. However, I fear in this case, mercy is not an option.

Whether or not the Null under consideration is in fact dangerous is not the question, nor the point. The fact remains, as long as it lives, it represents a danger. The threat of future insurrection, whether willing or unwilling, cannot be allowed.

I pray that the outcome of this discussion is a carefully considered one.

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[lifetothefullest]

[Well, that's an interesting response, and Lance considers it carefully before asking a question.]

What do you mean, about whether it is or isn't truly a danger not being the point? What exactly do you consider a thread of insurrection?

[voice]

[hot_mes]

I understand our hosts' intense need to destroy it just for existing. But I can't say that would be the wisest course of action. Imagine what we could learn about the conflict between the gods and the Null - just in reading its texts to everyone, so much more has already opened up to us.

[voice]

[lifetothefullest]

[He definitely can't argue with any of that, and even if he could it isn't the point of things anyway.]

Is there anything in particular you think we could learn from this Null? And do you believe it's worth the risk of it potentially lying and still meaning us harm?

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[whip_poor_will]

On my part, I am a fan of second chances for most. If it is possible for one of those "gods" to turn on their own for the machines, then I believe it is equally as possible for one of the machines to do the same for us.

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[lifetothefullest]

It's possible, but do you think it's likely?

[Video]

[bespectacledsnake]

I should think waiting to see how useful it could be would be the best way to go.

[Video]

[lifetothefullest]

What sort of use do you think it might be to us?

Video

[sneaklizard]

Ah- [She clears her throat.] Hey.

[ Meet a dragonborn, Lance.]

I wasn't here when ya'll fought these guys and the whole...[ She pauses for a bit, thinking of a good word for it.] You know, when shit hit the magic fan and stuff. But I've gotten the downlow from a couple of people and, kind of, am stuck here too?

I think the best idea is getting as much intel as we can from it. Maybe it's a scout or a spy or somethin', but maybe we can learn more about how they work. If it is a scout, don't they already know where we are?

Maybe keeping it somewhere away from people and check it out. See what we can get.

[ 'We' being used here as he's poised this as a city-wide choice. She isn't sure she can do much to help, but, maybe.]

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[lifetothefullest]

[...Huh. Her appearance isn't exactly a shock since Lance is used to a few other individuals here that look distinctly nonhuman, but it's still unusual and expected. And pretty cool.

But that's all besides the point, and he listens carefully to her response, nodding in understanding.]

Do you believe it could have enough to offer us to make up for the potential risk it poses?

[He definitely thinks she's right about that if Name were both intending and able to communicate with the other Null, such as if it's playing scout, it would've already let the other Null know about them all. So either it's genuinely disinterested in hurting people, it's communications are damaged, or both.

But there are other potential risks, for sure, and he's interested in seeing how people are balancing out the pros and cons. He's also intrigued by her last suggestion, but doesn't address it for now.]

text;

[radiopalkiller]

[ He's got a few thoughts on that. Here's the one he's picking to share in public: ]

Give it to the gods to interrogate. Or scrap it for parts.

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[lifetothefullest]

[At least that's a pretty clear answer to work with.]

Do you think it's lying about what it said about no longer wishing any harm on those here?

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[so_dark_a_road]

[ It's only been a week since he was injured in the fight against Caedra's demons, and he's not fully healed. But he's attempting to keep life as normal as possible, so he is on Guard duty. Besides, too many monsters still roaming the city, and every sword is needed. (Shotgun, in this case.) But no creatures having presented themselves for slaughter in the last few hours, Curufin is taking a break, sitting on the steps of Tranquility's temple. ]

I've never truly been sold on the idea of the Null as incapable of deceit. I think they are quite capable of leaving one of themselves behind with an extra program running -- one that feigns emotional responses to keep us from killing it, even while the lonely little Null is transmitting our whereabouts to the Null bases.

Even if the feelings are genuine, though, that does not render the creature harmless. What if we adopt it and try to make it feel at home, while hoping to get information from it that might prove valuable to us? That might work, but the Null might never be capable of seeing things from our point of view. From the way it was talking, it still believes that emotions are an illness, an infection. It hates itself for having been infected. What do sentient beings do when they hate themselves? -- frequently, they commit suicide, sometimes taking others with them. If it hasn't already been in communication with the rest of the Null, then it might very well signal them to come here, simply to end its pain and its feeling of being an outcast. Of course, they'd kill it, but that would be the point.

Julie Grigio and I have already spent some time searching for the lone android, with the intention of destroying it on on sight. Couldn't find the damned thing. It's better at hiding that I would have expected.

But all of that said, I suspect the opinions of myself and others who simply want the thing destroyed are not going to prevail. In that case, I'd like to make some suggestions, and I think it would be best if we met in person for that. Are you up for it?

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[lifetothefullest]

[Lance is totally quiet while Curufin talks, listening, but Curufin probably knows him well enough at this point to read in his expression--even as it is--that he doesn't agree. But he's genuinely interested in hearing what other people here think and why and so he's going to listen, and there's definitely some stuff in what Curufin says that he's glad he knows now.

But he nods at the last question, finding it to be a good idea, so he'll address the rest of what Curufin said when they meet up.]

I think speaking in person is for the best, yes. Is there somewhere you'd prefer to meet?

[video]

[sciencelizard]

I don't... think it's right to just k-kill it, outright. It's scared. It doesn't know what emotions are and it's just... afraid, you know?

[She's been thinking a lot about this, recently.]

Just because they're at war doesn't mean we need to contribute to it. M-Maybe we can do better.

[video]

[lifetothefullest]

Do you believe it's telling the truth, then?

[It sounds that way, since there was no mention of potential risk and her reasoning seems based on considering its emotions, but he's making sure. The last part of what she said is actually more interesting to him, though, but first thing first.]

[hasitsthorns]

I think it's an opportunity to learn more about our enemy than we might otherwise. It's not the most practical course of action - it could be a trap, as a lot of people have pointed out - but I think it's still one we can't ignore either.

[ It isn't the smartest plan, basically, but Rose is known for impulsive, reckless decisions anyway. Only this one has been carefully thought on and she knows it's got a high risk. ]

I kept asking myself what Sorrow would do. And that's probably kill it outright, if I know him like I think I do. But I'm not him and he's not here so... I say we try to help it. Understand it. I, more than most, know what it's like to be hated and feared just because of what I am without people knowing who I am. If this Null is being genuine in having emotions and feeling remorse then... I got a second chance. Why shouldn't it?

[lifetothefullest]

[He listens to all of that, and it's clear she's considered various angles; he's a little surprised by the mention of Sorrow and--more specifically--going against what he might've wanted, but he's glad to hear it and he can't really argue with that reasoning.

But arguing isn't the point of this post anyway, so instead--]

Are you at all concerned that your personal experiences might be causing you to act more from emotion than anything else?

[It isn't asked judgmentally; he genuinely wants to hear what she thinks.]

[Audio]

[whistlewhilstyouwork]

Are we taking some sort of vote?

[Audio]

[lifetothefullest]

I don't exactly have the kind of authority to hold a vote, let alone act on it.

[And although that'd be nice, he'd also be a little nervous about such a responsibility in a place like this.]

I'm just interested in finding out more about the opinions of other people here, particularly if they have reasoning for it that I haven't considered.

voice

[ex_matricide319]

Robots can't have emotions. It's just some kind of program that makes you think it's having emotional responses, like... I dunno, a Tamagotchi or something.

It's probably a trick and it needs to be destroyed.

voice

[lifetothefullest]

Normally I'd be inclined to agree, and there are several psychological reasons and mechanisms by which people assign human emotions and motivations to creatures that don't possess them.

[But that said--]

However, there are several people here who are mechanical in origin; do you believe none of them truly have emotions?

video.

[puzzlingly]

What is your opinion about it, Lance?

「He's been watching/reading at this long enough to start seeing he's not talking about it.」

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[lifetothefullest]

[Good catch, Atem.]

I prefer to talk about that in person, if you don't mind.

[He's been meaning to talk to Atem specifically about this issue anyway.]

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[toiletseat_girl]

I'm making this private 'cause I think people might get pissy with me 'cause I stuck to the Clinic when other people were busy fighting and dying. And because I think my opinion's gonna be an unpopular one.

[she takes a deep breath and lets it out slowly]

I think . . . we should find it. And try to help it.

I dunno, what d'you think?

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[lifetothefullest]

Staying with the Clinic was important, though; if anyone has an issue with you for that, then they're even more unreasonable than I'd expect.

But you're right in that the opinion is unpopular with some. And I think we should talk in person, if that's alright with you.

[For a few reasons, he'd prefer to discuss with her off the network.]

[disarmer]

I don't know much about the null or...whatever happened with them before, but I told Name that I'd protect him, and that's what I'm gonna do.

[ Just. An fyi pretty much. Magnus gets on some level that there's more nuance to this situation, but he's kind of a one-track bonehead, so. ]

[lifetothefullest]

[It's definitely a straightforward answer, which makes Lance's life a little easier, though he has to ask--]

Is there a particular reason you agreed to protect it?

private video;

[survivorsguilt]

I get wanting to kill every last one of these fucks- like, I'm right there. Trust me.

I just don't think it's smart. Whether or not this thing is lying, it could have info we need. But... I'm not sure if it's worth it or not, either.

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[lifetothefullest]

[Her response is pretty neutral, so Lance thinks it's worthwhile to make a suggestion right away--]

Would you like to talk more about this in person?

[He asks it neutrally, but she can probably tell he thinks it's the best idea. Sure, the video is private, but who knows what the gods are watching and unlike a lot of the people on this post, he's not interested in letting Ellie potentially get herself into trouble by saying too much.]